On the latest Episode, Jack Burns from Fraser Jones sheds light on what makes specialized recruitment such an art form.
We discuss strategic team growth, with Jack's insights into hiring in niche markets, particularly payroll. This episode is perfect for anyone curious about the transformation from a generalist to a niche recruiter.
On the latest Episode, Jack Burns from Fraser Jones sheds light on what makes specialized recruitment such an art form.
We discuss strategic team growth, with Jack's insights into hiring in niche markets, particularly payroll. This episode is perfect for anyone curious about the transformation from a generalist to a niche recruiter.
Good morning everyone and welcome to another episode of 15 minutes with 15 West. I'm very excited today because I'm welcoming a very special guest, not only just a recruiter within my network, but also a very close personal friend of mine, mr Jack Burns. Jack, good to see you, how are you?
Speaker 2:You all right.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. Good, I'm pleased to have you on. I've got first question. I'm diving straight in. Have you ever done a podcast before? Jack, I have.
Speaker 2:I have. We actually host our own podcast here at Fraser Jones within my team, so it's my. It's my second podcast actually, so a little bit nervous, but you know it will come back to me, we'll get there.
Speaker 1:Hopefully it's a bit light and fluffy and hopefully me being your mate, should hopefully soften up the tone.
Speaker 2:Well, let's hope right, let's hope.
Speaker 1:Let's hope, indeed, and don't worry, my head of ops can edit anything if there's any bloopers or anything. So as I start just to briefly introduce Jack myself, and I'll let Jack do the talking. Jack Burns is, as I said, a close personal friend of mine. I've worked with Jack previously. We started our careers together in the same business way back when. Jack is a specialist within the payroll market and he's currently leading a team within the payroll world at the moment. Jack, why don't you introduce yourself for us?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, look, I've been in recruitment since 2016, so that's eight years now, quite a while so I'm getting old um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I started my payroll recruitment career in 2018, um with with a previous business, and, and joined Fraser Jones back in 2022 to help them grow and develop their payroll offering um in the UK but as well on a global scale. So there's, there's lots. There's lots that's been happening in the past couple years. It's been a busy few years, but yeah, keane's obviously tell you a bit more about what we're what we're doing, right yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Well, you mentioned fraser jones there. That's obviously where you're at at the moment, so why don't you tell us a little bit more about fraser jones and what you're covering within fraser jones?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I mean fraser jones are a global um hr recruitment business, also focused on executive search as well. Um, we're across 15, 16 regions globally and my remit here is, like I said, payroll recruitment, but in particular, I focus on financial and professional services, so it's anything from an investment bank to leading law firms, and I do that in the UK and as well on a global scale, so I can support many of my clients in a lot of those regions that we're located in. Would you call?
Speaker 1:that a niche area and the reason I ask that? Obviously, as I mentioned, we started our career together. My first job was also in payroll recruitment, before I branched out into different areas and I remember the business that we worked at. It was payroll for every market, not necessarily just professional financial services. So now you're within that space. Do you find that too niche somewhat, or yeah? So now you're within that space, do you find that too niche somewhat, or yeah? How do you? How do you? How do you? How do you feel within that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think the niche is is a real positive um, if anything, because it's a huge selling point for myself and my team when going after new business. Um, I think a lot of our clients like the fact that you know my candidate and client pool is within that space. You know financial professional services. I'm speaking to relevant candidates in that area. I'm speaking to relevant clients in the area, so it, when I'm passing on information, salary information or you know salary guides, it's hugely relevant um and it just, yeah, it will benefits their search massively, you know um. So so yeah, I mean, I think niche is good in any recruitment space. Um, I think the worst thing to do, in my opinion, is spread yourself so thin, right. So the more niche you are, the more specialist you are and and ultimately, that's what clients are paying for at the end of the day that's a very yeah, it's a very good point.
Speaker 1:I think I work with a lot of recruiters that I speak to perhaps some of the bigger players, the more corporate businesses like Michael Page and Hayes and I think there isn't really a client niche. It's very much, you know, you go after anything and everything that you can and I think actually from my experience when introducing those recruiters to my clients, it's less sought after. I think they always want people that are within a niche industry.
Speaker 2:It's a question I've not.
Speaker 1:I'll be honest, I haven't prepped you for, but I'm keen to know your thoughts. So, being within the niche of professional and financial services, how do you think you know? You yourself and Fraser Joe set yourself apart from the competitors within the payroll world?
Speaker 2:I think for us, we always go back to sort of the old school way of doing things. Really, you know, being honest and upfront with candidates and clients. Um, I think sometimes that that's been missed. You know, from from from what I've heard in in the industry, you know, not getting back to people with interview feedback or something like that. It's, it's very simple and basic stuff, but those candidates and clients always remember that, right, you know, they always want to have the best service and no one wants to tell anyone they're not successful.
Speaker 2:Um, of course they don't, but that person may land in, you know, in a really big role and become a decision maker some some time, right? So I think for us, yeah, it's just around being going back to the basics, being good to people that we work with. You know, giving them that service. Um, I, I think, ultimately, you know meeting people. You know, I think over the past couple of years, with Covid in particular, like a lot of people have sort of refrained from going in and meeting people in person, you know um well, I've recovered my world, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's very much from it it has it, I think for me, you know it. You need that personal touch, you need to go meet someone in person and, look, I think it does sort of add a bit extra. If you go and meet a candidate or a client in person, they go well. You know, this person's actually taking some time to meet me. He wants to understand the business, the culture, and if you're a candidate, you know who I am as an individual and what I'm essentially suited for. So I always say that that's how we're trying to be different.
Speaker 2:I think I mentioned obviously previously about we're a global business. You know we're in 16 different locations. We also pivot off our other brands. So we've got Taylor Root, carter, murray, brewer, morris and Keller West. So we sort of cover all different avenues of sort of recruitment now and we can pivot off those relationships as well. So, yeah, it's a different approach, I think, to the payroll market, but we've seen a huge success in the past couple of years and, yeah, looking to grow and develop that over the next coming years as well.
Speaker 1:Well, just a very good point. Actually, talking about the other brands within the, the wider sr group that fraser jones is a part of, I mean there's a number of different companies that I think are adopting that sort of same group mentality. You know there's the, the fading group, I think obviously as well the kernel group, a couple of other groups that I've worked with in in the past, lhr, etc. How do you feel the crossing element benefits you? Is that something that you truly see success from, or is it more from your own personal network?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we definitely see benefits of it. I think, as a sort of collective of businesses, we're trying to collaborate as much as possible. You know, if an individual's got a strong relationship with a client and Fraser Jones don't have a relationship there, you know, we are asking for introductions to that client, right, because it's if, if they have a HR team which most of the time they probably will do we can support them with that. And if, if Taylor Root, for example, having great success with that business, then what you know, we can obviously help them as well. You know, so, um, so, yeah, I, it's, it's something that we, we are are definitely honing in on and really trying to.
Speaker 2:You know, make, make every client that we work with understand that we can support them in all of these different areas, right, um, and I think you know that that's that's one of the reasons why I joined the sr group and, you know, looked at the other brands in particular and said, look, we are covering every possible spectrum of sort of what a business does, right, so it, marketing, hr, finance, tax, you know. So, again, it's just a sort of another, another pillar to to the arm right, and, yeah, it's just again, with a client. It just makes things a lot easier for them. They don't have to go elsewhere. You know, it's just a one-stop shop, right? So it just makes things a lot better. Yeah, I've never thought of it like that.
Speaker 2:One stop shop it's very true I think, if you've got, because, like you say, it's just a one-stop shop, right?
Speaker 1:So it just makes things a lot better. Yeah, I've never thought of it like that a one-stop shop. It's very true, I think, if you've got, because, like you say, it's every function, isn't it? So that's actually, that's actually a really good point. Well, moving back to payroll and obviously we spoke about a niche within payroll so, in terms of what you're covering because I think may work, you know, on the low end of the payroll world, I've known people that specialize really at the top end. I used to work with a senior individual. I think we both know who covers. You know, specifically global hr and payroll implementation projects, and I started to see that there's actually some players in the market that are specifically focusing at that top level. So what would you say? Your niche? Not from a clientele perspective, but actually from a level of payroll perspective where are you mostly focusing your attention?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean me myself in particular. It's that sort of mid to senior market um. You know, I've had a lot of success at that sort of end of the market. But I've got a team that will focus I mean, for example, my boss. It focuses on the very, very senior end of the market. You know six figure salaries, um, you really sort of senior level, seat at the table roles within very high ranking businesses, and obviously you have an interim counterpart that does that as well. So I think as a team and as we've grown, we're trying to cover every angle, but what we're not wanting to do is reduce the service that I think we've taken so long to build up by having too many people in the team. You know we are being very calculated about our growth and we want the right people in place that are ultimately going to continue that great service that everyone's got. And you know the reason why they they pick up the phone to the payroll team of Fraser Jones, right.
Speaker 1:So but yeah, yeah, and that's yeah. It's a good point. And what would you again? Another question I haven't necessarily prepared for and you you might be thinking careful what I say because my boss is the one that calls the shots but what would you say in terms of that right person, like you say? You know your hiring plans can be very calculated. Who, what would that right person look like? You know, what would you look for in an individual to be able to come in and be successful in your business or with your team?
Speaker 2:I think I mean it goes back to my point earlier around sort of honesty and and going back to the basics. I mean just you know the I don't think recruitment from my opinion is is a is a massively hard or challenging role. I think you've just got to remember how to do the basics very, very well and you will get a lot of success. You know, getting back to people, especially if you're in a niche market, right, you want to make sure that everyone you're speaking to has got a good opinion on you. But I think for us in particular, I think people who do things a little bit differently, who have got new ideas I think we as a team we cannot all be the same right we need people that are going to come in and have a different perspective on things and go. Well, you know, maybe we're doing things wrong this way, or maybe we can go into this market and do this or do that I think, as a team, we're very established now and we've got a great reputation.
Speaker 2:I think, if we were ever to grow the team, I think that's probably the avenue we'd go down. Is that someone that's a bit different, someone that's going to bring something new but has still got that hunger, that drive, that passion, you know, who takes it extremely seriously? Um, you know, and that's that's what we all, we all do as a team every, every day we come to work, we want to be the best that we can be, um, and, yeah, you know, I, I truly believe that we are so, yeah, well, I think.
Speaker 1:I mean we've spoken about that, we've used the word niche a fair amount of times in the podcast so far. I think payroll itself is called niche industry. It sits somewhat under the bracket of hr and also in other ways under the bracket of finance. And I think you know there aren't, there aren't a million payroll recruiters out there. You know, I think there's obviously only a certain amount. But there are a lot of finance recruiters out there and I imagine that you know you'd probably be quite interested in someone from, say, a HR finance background if they brought that right cultural aspect to the team. But that's probably a challenge that I think a lot of recruiters face. You know, if I go to talk about the payroll market, I think if you're working with, say, a finance recruiter, that's in qual finance? I think their mindset naturally would be well, I've got such a bigger market. You know why would I go into something more specialized and niche? I mean?
Speaker 2:would you say?
Speaker 1:that people coming from those bigger, wider industries can still be as successful in a market like payroll yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, prime example is myself and my boss. I mean we both sort of come from finance recruiters previously and I think you know the sort of initial opinion is all payroll, you know what. Why would you just specialize when you can cover everything you know? Um, it goes back to your point. Obviously. It's good, I think.
Speaker 2:I think the niche is a massive selling point. If you're going to pick up the phone to a client who's advertising a role and you say I recruit everything and they go. Well, I've had an agency call me that just specialises in payroll and is working with three of my competitors right now. I mean, if I was the client, I'd go with that business right, because they know exactly what they're talking about. And I think it goes back to what I was saying about you know, not spreading yourself too thin. I think that the niche is a massive selling point, especially in today's market. There's so many agencies, so many recruiters out there. How do you set yourself apart from every single other recruiter? And it goes back to being that specialist individual, being the best at what you can do, taking it very, very seriously, and people remember that, right, you know, at the end of the day, that's what clients paying for you know they want to be. They want to get the best person to help them because recruitment's stressful, you know they don't.
Speaker 1:They don't want to be doing it. I've had a week. I've had a week of stress, to say the least.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm with you, yeah so you know, I, my, my job hold ultimately here is to make my client's life a lot easier. You know, um, and look, sometimes we're having conversations with clients and we're not we're not essentially saying that they're wrong or they know they're not, they're not doing things correctly, but we're having to advise, we're having to consult them. You know, and and sometimes that's a difficult conversation to have, but it's what a recruiter should be doing. You know, consult them. You know, and and sometimes that's a difficult conversation to have, but it's what a recruiter should be doing. You know it's.
Speaker 2:You know I've been doing this now for eight years. You're paying for that service, you're paying for that knowledge of someone that can come in and say we're underpaying by 10 grand. Or you know we're, we're going about this the wrong way. Or you know whatever um, it's going to save them time in finding the right talent. And you know we're, we're going about this the wrong way. Or you know whatever um, it's going to save them time in finding the right talent. And you know we, we've done a lot of that over the past couple of years, in particular with. You know a number of clients they've been recruiting for two, three months. You know uh, directly or or with a more generous recruiter. We've then come on board, advised them. We've had it turned three weeks, you know, and then off we made. So, yeah, it's just uh, proof to proof to the pudding is that? Is that the same?
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, I know what you're trying to say. Well, you made a comment through what you were saying there about today's market and obviously how you've got to act and be successful in today's market. How is the market at the moment for payroll? Obviously we're just coming to the end of q1. I appreciate. You know, I think, a lot of different people I speak to, whether that's in payroll or in another market. There's some good stories, there's some bad ones, some people are flying, some people are sinking. How are you finding the payroll market overall at the moment?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, it's all for us. It's always busy. I think you've got to remember that payroll is a need in every business, right? Everyone comes to work to get paid. So if someone leaves uh, you know, head of payroll leaves they're going to need to replace that person quite, quite urgently. So, um it, I think q1 for most businesses is always a bit tough.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, a lot of people are wasting on bonuses with a lot of our clients, so you know they. But I think at the same time we've been, we've been busy, we're above our target for the year. Um, so I think that's always positive. Um, but I think, because we cover all of the different avenues of payrolls, we do obviously more junior, senior, temporary contract, you know, you see sort of spikes and and and bubbles in different areas. I think contracts and interim has been a big part. As expected, a lot of people come out to bonus round. They need extra support, extra help. Um, you know it's uh, that that's been a big avenue for us, I think. I think next quarter will probably be the biggest busiest quarter for us as as a team. Um, it historically has been for the past couple of years. So, um, yeah, I, I won't be booking any annual leave in the next three months.
Speaker 1:I'll touch wood for you, mate, and I hope it is as promising as you plan it to be.
Speaker 2:And what?
Speaker 1:you know, I know you mentioned calculated growth and you know the team will grow, but obviously you want to find the right people, but outside of just, you know, getting a few more people on the team. What is the plan for 2024? Is there anything big and exciting happening, or is it more steady growth than just keeping on top of things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, steady growth and just keeping on top of things. Yeah, I think steady growth, um, I think for us, we we're, we're at that point where you know we've been successful for the past couple of years, we've made real inroads into clients. I think we're now trying to see what else we can do for our clients. So something that, uh, myself, my, my colleague, sam, have started is a payroll podcast, something that, yeah, yeah, so something that you know our candidates, clients, can listen to. You know, we've, we've got a few um, we've got a book, sort of once a quarter, and we're interviewing some really notable people and it's basically just to talk about market trends, talk about systems, whatever right, whatever comes to mind. Every month stuff's changing. So I think we're just trying to sort of give back and and actually, when we're speaking, to all the just recruiters, right, yeah, yeah, you know it's.
Speaker 2:I think for us it's another, it's another, it's another point there to help our candidates and clients out, right, um, I think as well. Events you know, we we host a lot of events as as a team and it's something that we're we, we really enjoy doing. I mean we um. One in particular thing that we do as a team is it's something that we really enjoy doing. I mean one in particular thing that we do as a team is we host a payroll banking forum every three months. So we have basically the top 20 individuals who work within financial and professional services all come into a room, all in our office, for half a day, and again we're talking about subjects of of what's going on in the market. So I think we're probably looking to broaden that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um, again, we're potentially looking to start a future leaders of payroll event. I think that would be quite good. You know more of a junior sort of market and how are these people, how do they get to that senior level? Right, what are they? What should they be doing? You know, to get to a head of payroll position? Again, it's, it's, it's doing a lot more than just I can help you recruit a job, right. So, um, I think that's something we're we're looking to do, and I think I mean, look, goes back, say I think we're just looking to maintain our standards. Um, you know, we're we're not going for for world domination here, we're we're looking to maintain what we we've been doing the past couple years increase that, obviously, of course, but, um, I think we don't want standards to slip and I think that's that's a very important, important point that we, yeah, that I'd like to mention that. So so, yeah, a lot going on yeah, lots going on, fair play.
Speaker 1:Well, I know we, we there's probably a couple more things that we said that we may talk about, but I think we've covered a huge amount of ground and I think you know what I would take away from this podcast is, I think, one of the points I mentioned there about finance recruiters or other types of recruiters considering the payroll market and maybe not really underestimating its true potential and value. I think you certainly sold it well and I think you know it sounds like it's going to be an exciting time.
Speaker 2:I mean given what you said about.
Speaker 1:Q2. There is a week left of Q1. If anyone's considering a move, hit me up. I'll introduce you to Jack. But yeah, I think there's lots of food for thought there. Well, jack, I really really appreciate your time. I thank you so much for coming on and, I think, good luck for the future and let's see where you get to perfect.